February 19, 2010

Carthage students protest anti-homosexuality speaker

A group of Carthage College students is protesting the appearance this weekend of a campus speaker opposed to homosexuality.

This morning they issued the following press release:
Carthage students unite against discrimination on campus

This weekend Carthage College is hosting a regional conference led and sponsored by Intervarsity. After an extensive investigation, it has come to light that the following speaker, Shannon Marion, will be presenting at this conference. Shannon Marion has stated that being homosexual is against God’s design, and therefore it is wrong. This will be at the core of his message that will be delivered to Intervarsity students that are coming from all over Southeastern Wisconsin.

Carthage College students will be taking action against this discriminatory message that runs contrary to beliefs of the majority of the student body, demonstrated by the fact that in one full day of action, students were able to collect 400 signatures against the event. Furthermore, the mission of Carthage College and the ELCA Lutheran Church of America takes a strong stance of acceptance towards all members of society, gay and straight. Specifically, the ELCA Lutheran Church of America, “encourage[s] discerning conversation about homosexuality and the inclusion of gay and lesbian persons in our common life and mission.”

After five meetings that included students, administration, and conference leaders, the Carthage administration is providing a forum for this discriminatory message that runs contrary to the mission of the institution. It also creates an unsafe environment for the student community as a whole.

Over the next three days, Carthage students will be standing united against this speaker and his message. Starting at 5 p.m. Friday, Feb. 19, Carthage students will be gathering at the Lincoln statue at the north end of campus to rally as a community united in favor of open dialogue that enables all sides to be heard. Members of progressive communities from Madison, Milwaukee and Chicago will also be in attendance to support the students.
Shannon Marion's Facebook page lists him as a graduate of Northwestern in 1987, in integrated science and physics, and an employee of InterVarsity Christian Fellowship since 1989, where he is now co-regional director, Great Lakes West. Neither InterVarsity's web page, nor Carthage's, lists the weekend conference.

The LGBT Center of SE Wisconsin issued the following statement:
The LGBT Center of SE Wisconsin supports the First Amendment Right to Freedom of Speech, while encouraging opportunities for constructive criticism from responsible spokespeople representing different viewpoints.

Further, the LGBT Center of SE Wisconsin stands behind these students in spirit and encourages them to rally others at Carthage College to create or re-establish a Gay/Straight Alliance (or other LGBT + allies-oriented organization) on campus that will advocate for their beliefs and concerns.


  1. I thought Carthage was a liberal arts school, which be definition tries to understand all points of view. I gues it is just another UWP with higher tuition. Narrow minded people exist on both sides of view.

  2. Where does one start with this? If a majority of the student body doesnt agree with the speakers stance, why make a big deal? No one will show up. Right? Secondly, isnt discriminatory not to let the speaker speak on what he and IV believe in?

    I doubt that a majority of students are pro-homosexual. They are just too scared to disagree with these GLBT thugs.

  3. I am a student at Carthage College. The fact is that they are bringign someone to tell us our sexuality is wrong in the eyes of God. There are no 'GLBT thugs' the fact is more than half the people at the rally will be straight.

  4. Damn! I was hoping gays finally had their own thugs to beat up on people who were different.

  5. To the Carthage Student: It's called free speech! This speaker has a right to his opinion and to speak that opinion, you have a right to protest if you don't agree.

    But since you seem to be particularly offended by the premise that homosexuality is wrong in the eyes and since I'm assuming you're NOT God, how can you be so certain you're opinion is right and the speaker's is wrong?

  6. Don't worry too much. She appears to be more of a light number than most gays I know.

  7. I am also a student at Carthage, and in response to the previous comment, I say yes. Yes, we completely understand that this speaker has the right to have and express his opinion. And yes, we have the right to protest, because we do not agree with his opinion. And yes, we are exercising that right. We are not trying to be God. There are no "GLBT thugs". No one is forcing anyone to comply with a certain message or opinion or action, as the "GLBT thugs" comment suggests. This is a PEACEFUL demonstration, with the sole purpose of advocating for the chance to show that there is an alternative side to this issue, and to show that we don't support discrimination against a specific body of students on campus. You are entitled to your opinion, I am entitled to mine. Peace, friends.

  8. I guess Carthage just hates gays.

  9. ANON 2:00 PM I hope you are right.

    However, too often these protests turn into people trying to shout down the speaker.

    Have your protest but be polite and try not to disrupt the event.

  10. A rounded peg doesn't fit in a square hole.

  11. Pete, you have called this a "discriminatory message." I read the article and found no evidence that the speaker has called for discrimination against gays. Rather, the speaker thinks that homosexuality is wrong. Is it now considered discrimination if one party disagrees with another?

  12. My bad Pete, I see that this was a press release, so I should have directed the question to the protesters.

  13. It's onlt discrimination if you don't agree with liberals.

  14. 2:00 - so why don't you arrange to have a pro gay speaker for a future event. I agree in equal time - or is it more fun to make a scene. I think everyone should have a right to express their opinions - so go and line up a speaker.

  15. Carthage Alum2/19/2010 4:24 PM

    This is very interesting. I am a Carthage Grad and am saddend at how many ill informed folks there are in the Kenosha/Racine areas--worst of all the writer to the above article. To state "It also creates an unsafe environment for the student community as a whole." to have this speaker share is just plain wrong. To block this speaker would show Carthage as crazy liberals too insecure to allow freedom of speech. Carthage's decision to not interfere with a Student Organization such as IV whose mission is to serve members of the college and share the love of Jesus with them simply reflects their ability to make at least one good judgement call.

    Just because there are a number of flamming liberals does not mean that the truth (that homosexuality is wrong in the eys of God and God fearing people who have a clue) should not be presented. Also, going against the student organization's decision to host this event would mean freedom of speech and the freedom to believe are rights that no longer exist and the day that happens I and many of my fellow alumni will cease to ever give a dime to Carthage.

    Long live the freedom of speech--even if you don't like what you are hearing--the truth will one day penetrate your heart. God is still working on you--you can run but you can't hide from Him!

  16. Funny, I don't remember Jesus mentioning anything about this topic. Seems as if it were that important, he would have said something.

  17. While I am not a Carthage student, I thought Carthage was a religious institution. If so, would they not be allowed to bring in speakers that support the church's teachings?

    I do not happen to agree with the speaker's beliefs, so like another poster said, I would protest simply by not showing up.

  18. I am one Carthage Alum who is very proud of these students for embracing their democratic responsibility. At this afternoons' event, organizers presented themselves as well-informed, thoughtful people who clearly want to open a constructive dialog among people with diverse values. I guess that's different than a dia-blog, which often devolves into ignorance and hate.

  19. I'm glad our family decided to leave the ELCA when our minister retired.He was replaced with someone who is anti-gay.

  20. Carthage Alum, 4:24,

    Once you've plucked out both your eyes and cut off both your hands in atonement for your own transgressions, then given all your money to, say, Carthage College, then and only then, once you've achieved perfection (lotsa luck there), are you qualified to judge others.

    Before that, Jesus says flat out, you're not qualified.

    So, as Jesus would advise, keep your moral judgments to yourself and love your neighbor as yourself.

    Read The Book, man!

  21. OK, now I'm confused. Who's Shannon Marion?

  22. God created Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve!!

  23. The "Book," old and new, CLEARLY states that homosexuality is a sin and that those who participate in it will NOT inherit the kingdom of heaven.

    Looks like they can't teach basic theology over there at Carthage.

    But who cares, anyway, there's barely a "Christian" affiliated college around here anymore that follows Christ. And to expect the ELCA to do so a major, f'ing joke. They're the looniest of all Lutherans.

    There's no story here but a few gay fascists flaming the fires and causing an exciting ruckus on a campus that is otherwise completely boring and mostly irrelevant where social issues are concerned.

  24. Anon, 8:46,

    You seem pretty well-versed in the Bible. Please enlighten us on what Jesus had to say in the New Testament on the subject.

  25. Who is this nobody anyway, and why is he addressing a college audience?

  26. Yes, I am enlightened, since I have a Christian religion degree (from a secular university, FYI).

    You know, people who are Biblical scholars just laugh at your pro-gay arguments about how Jesus, himself, never said anything about homosexuality. But what about the disciples who actually KNEW him and hung out with him and followed him - ALL of which (except one) were WILLINGLY martyred on behalf of him. They were full of shit? They thought it would be a fun little joke to later write down that gays are going to hell?

    No, you're a frickin' idiot. The epistles in the New Testament were written by actual and close followers of Jesus. Those letters DO talk about the peace & love you all cling onto, but you refuse to acknowledge what else those same writers spoke of.

    You can not give credence to the 4 Gospels of Christ without giving credence to the rest of the New Testament. Duh. Obviously. Hello! Period. YOU'RE smarter than 1000+ years of Bible scholarship and commentary? Wake up, pal, and smell the coffee.

    But let's just say your argument holds water (which it doesn't.) Jesus DID admonish against sexual sin, and more than once. You know, like sleeping around and having sex out of wedlock? So considering that gay culture is mostly (mostly) a cesspool of cheating and anonymous sex, do you REALLY think Jesus would approve? Do you really think Jesus would dig wholesale uncommitted and objectified sex between anyone, hetero or homo?

    Think again.

  27. Anon, 9 p.m.,

    When did he say all that about gays and lesbians?

    And while you're at it, tell us how many times Jesus admonished his closest followers for not really understanding what he was saying.

  28. Seems to me Jesus was pretty hard on the money-changers in the temple - because they were defiling the temple - but he mostly stood up in defense of people accused of sexual transgressions or other "impurity."

    You know, as in "you without sin cast the first stone."

    And confirming the faith of the bleeding woman who touched his robe.

    You're all painting a very strange picture of The Savior.

  29. You are a stupid, stupid, and very clueless person if you believe that Jesus had to specify which multitude of subsets and subcultures to whom he was speaking on any subject. In fact, your challenge to me defies basic logical reason. (Seriously, it does.)

    That's like saying if you run a red light, you're gonna go fight the ticket you got because the law didn't specificlly state that GAY PEOPLE had to stop at red lights.

    You are so gay-centric, so gay-tunnel visioned, so on the gay agenda freight train that you can't even think logically. You can think of nothing to argue with but lame-o challenges that seek to prove, definitively, that EVERYTHING Jesus said about immorality FOR SURE didn't include homosexuals. As if homosexuals were even a major consideration back then! The sexual actions of homosexuals in the first century were considered so wrong, so heinous, that it wasn't necessary to even bring it up. People understood it. Cripes, the Romans used to crucify people for open homosexuality. (But oh, since Jesus wasn't directly quoted as saying it was bad, it must be OK.)

    That kind of logic, today, could get you in alot of trouble. It's selective logic, and it's selfish logic.

    And Jesus admonishing his closest followers for not understanding what he was saying? That's all he did! They made themselves out to look like fools over and over, stubling all over themselves trying to figure out what Jesus was all about. Nonetheless, like I said, they all died horrid, painful deaths to defend what Jesus taught and believed in.

    Sorry to be crass, but the bottom line is that Jesus was never in agreement with 2 guys bl*wing each other or worse. OK? To believe that he supported such actions shows a gross ignorance of the Bible and Christian Tradition. He came to save us from selfish, sinful actions, of which homosexuality top the charts.

    I also don't see you disagreeing with me that the gay culture is rampant with promiscuity. You must be in agreement with me on that.

  30. Doesn't seem like Jesus told people to approve or disapprove of much, in this world anyway.

    Just to love their neighbor and forgive others as they'd be forgiven.

    Certainly he didn't tell people to judge others.

    Oh, and maybe to pay taxes.

  31. Grow up and read the Bible, you ding bats.

    YES, Jesus forgave the adultress. But at the end, he said "Go and SIN NO MORE." And the sinners and tax collectors who followed Jesus? The Bible makes it crystal clear that they REPENTED of their wrongness and stopped sinning.

    Get a red letter Bible (do you know that that is?) and look at how many times Jesus says the word "repent." It's pretty often, people.


  32. It gripes my can when "theologians" claim to know, oh so much more, of The Bible than just folks reading it.

    Read it. It makes perfect sense. It's just hard to follow Jesus' teachings, as he meant them to be, because he challenges so many of mankind's inborn prejudices.

    The man was without prejudice, and he taught us all not to judge others, but to basically concern ourselves with ourselves and our personal relationship with God.

    If you really read it, it says you've got enough trouble dealing with your own issues that you've got absolutely no time to be petty enough to worry about what others are doing - except to offer them unconditional love.

    Once you start judging others, you're lost to him.

    It's a tough command. Probably too tough for most people to swallow. But that's it.

    Whenever I hear somebody say they have some deeper understanding of The Bible because they've studied so hard and none of us regular folks can understand it ... I think, like, the Inquisition.

  33. Anonymous 8:50 here.

    Still waiting to hear from somebody who can tell me what Jesus had to say about gays.

    Anybody? Anybody out there at all?

  34. Anon, 9:23,

    Actually, the Romans were pretty tolerant of same-sex relations, as were the Greeks before them.

  35. Still waiting for ONE Christian, dead or alive, liberal or conservative, to step out and advocate for a Bible that consists of only the 4 Gospels of Jesus Christ. (Oh, and it also has to remove ALL references to old testament Judaism, of which Jesus Christ was a believer and an adherent and a teacher of. You know, that pesky old testament that also condemns homosexuality?)

    When you get a movement like that going, and it picks up enough momentum, and any mainline Christian denomination formally accepts such a Bible, and when Christian bookstores and Barnes & Noble sell that version of the Bible, let me know. Then we'll have something to talk about.

    Until then, keep asking about where Jesus specifically stated that homosexuality was wrong. Oh, and while I'm waiting, I think I'll go screw a horse, or maybe a dog, since he didn't say that was wrong either. Or maybe I should go rape a kid, he seemed to be mum on that topic too.

  36. Let's be honest. Being gay is sick and wrong (unless its two women). Come all, we all know it!

  37. Face it, Jesus was kind of shy about condemning stuff. About the only thing he ever ruled out categorically, multiple times, was the establishment of a Christian nation on Earth.

  38. Anonymous 8:50 here again.

    Still waiting.

  39. Excuse me ... but I think Jesus covered sex with children:

    "But if you cause one of these little ones who trusts in me to fall into sin, it would be better for you to have a large millstone tied around your neck and be drowned in the depths of the sea."

    Can't say the same for adults or same-sex relationships, other than adultery, but it appears children are, indeed, hands-off.

  40. Anon, 9:52,

    OK, I agree. I'm all right with two women. But how about guys? We've all masturbated, right? Isn't that, inherently, a homosexual act?

    Maybe we ought to just leave all of this alone and agree to leave it where it belongs - private.

    Certainly it's not religious!

    I'm convinced it's only the seriously depraved who want to talk about it publicly anyway, on both sides (or, shall we say, all sides).

  41. So much invective from supposed followers of Jesus. We've had 2000 years of your "Christian" jihad. Your kind has slaughtered millions in the name of Jesus Christ. STFU for once. We're sick of your hatred!

  42. Sinner 10:33's got it nailed.

  43. Anonymous, 8:50 here again.

    Tired of waiting for a response.

    Good night, and God bless.

  44. Let's be honest. Being gay is just wrong folks. Reminds me of a bunch of people who would try to convice the work that OJ was innocent becuase it it is what they WANTED to believe.

    Its hard to even watch TV with my kids today becuase there is a flamer on just about every show/channel/MTV, etc. You ar born, get married, procreate, raise your children, and die. Stop F'ing with the cycle of life to meet your own perversions or fantasies. By you pushing your agenda, whether you know it or not, you are influencing minds that are still young and able to be manipulated.

    If you must act on your perversions, keep them in your bedrooms an dout of public sight. I dont go airing my love life!

  45. As a student at Carthage College I did not sign the petition because I felt the speaker had a RIGHT to speak their message, even though I disagree with it.

    To clear up a few things for readers that don't seem to have all the facts:

    1. This is a private event, not just any student can attend you had to pay in advance (like almost every other conference)

    2. The protests are taking place pretty much as far as possible away from the conference, students are gathering on the far north end while the conference will be on the far south end.

    When students heard about the the speaker coming to campus, and the message he brings, many were offended by it, as is their right. They decided to rally in protest of this message under the flag of Unity, the name they are giving to their gathering and the force behind it. Out of Unity they are standing together to reject the opinions of this speaker without trying to quiet him.

  46. Anon 4:38, Jesus didn't need to say anything on this topic. God made His opinion clear on the subject when He stated in the Bible that homosexuality was an abomination unto Him and He then proceeded to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah. Hence the term "sodomy." It is, in fact, contrary to nature in that it does not perpetuate the specie and it is a sinful act in God's eyes. You can not be a true believer in God and then support what He deems and abomination.

    For myself, I don't really give a rat's patoot who's doing what with whom. That's your own business as long I, or society in general, don't have to be subjected to it. Sex lives, gay or straight, don't belong on our street corners and no one should receive "special rights" just because they prefer to have sex on their knees in front of someone of the same gender. I agree that it is considerably more disgusting for it to take place between two men, primarily because between two women there is no exchange of life giving substance, but that still doesn't make it right. I have decided that I will never enter another Methodist church now that they are allowing openly gay ministers to preach from the pulpit. I refuse to enter a church where someone who is biblically wrong has the right to stand up there and preach to me about how sinful I am and how I need to repent, when they refuse to do so themselves. That is hypocritical to Nth degree.

    Also, anyone, gay or straight, who attempts to influence children in any sexual way, other than parentally educating them or by a sanctioned sex-ed class in school, should just be take out an hung.

  47. It seems that anything someone does in this country nowadays someone else gets offended. If there was a pro-homosexuality speaker the anti-homosexuality folks would get involved. It is really not news anymore.

  48. Graham,

    Actually, if you read The Bible, you'll find that God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because the residents were inhospitable to strangers.

    Hope He doesn't get the same idea in His head about this and wipe out Carthage College.

  49. Nothing brings out the christians more than when we homos act up.

  50. Quick! Somebody get two virgin daughters to placate the crowd!

    Hmmm? But how's that suppose to work when their sin is being gay?

    Oh, well, then, maybe the sin is rape. Now that makes a little more sense.

    This Bible stuff's really confusing, especially when people who talk about it really haven't read it.

  51. Okay, the fact is, there are students at Carthage who are gay. It doesn't matter if you think they are sinful or you think they are perfectly fine. The problem I have is that the school is basically permitting a speaker to come and offend a certain group of individuals. It would be like if they brought in an anti-black speaker, who said being blakc is a sin. That's that person's personal belief, and they are welcome to feel that way because of freedom of speech, but it's hurting a large group of individuals. But at what point are we going to put a boundary on what can be said? A school should feel like a safe haven for all its members. I think that having such a controversial speaker will most likely make a large population of the members feel outcast. It's okay to have your own opinions. But many people may not feel that way.

    If you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all! =]

  52. Freedom of speech issue aside, it does seem quite odd that a college is inviting onto campus a speaker whose sole purpose is to stigmatize a portion of their student body. It is at the very least bad manners.

  53. I go to Carthage (on their dime, I might add) and I am as far from Christian as you can get. While the offensive and useless bickering about where God/Jesus condemned who in what book is upsetting, I am far more upset by how this speaker got to campus. InterVarsity PAID to have this speaker come to campus using funds provided by the school which are generated by current tuition and alumni donations. I think the students have every right to get upset and protest the school's ill-thought use of their funds.

    Those who post about not judging others have hit the nail on the head. How can you ever expect to get anywhere in your life if you are so concerned with what someone else is doing, thinking, or believing?

  54. Carthage needs to push their students harder. They definitely have too much free time.

  55. Anon 12:55, that is not correct. Yes, they were inhospitable to strangers, but that is not the reason for the destruction. READ your bible before you start correcting people about something you obviously know nothing about. Does the word “righteous” ring a bell? The angels pleaded on Sodom and Gomorrah’s behalf to be saved if they could find even a small number of righteous people within the cities. They only found one family that would welcome them. There is a string of sins listed that the inhabitants of these two cities were guilty of and therefore being destroyed for. Sodom and Gomorrah have been used as metaphors for vice and sexual deviation for eons.

    Anon 2:24 says, “The problem I have is that the school is basically permitting a speaker to come and offend a certain group of individuals.” But, it is overlooked (or ignored) that Carthage is a religious based college. It is SUPPOSED to enforce and defend the Christian principles that it was founded upon. For any Christian organization to allow a speaker to orate in favor of any act that Christian principles and doctrine consider outright sinful or depraved is contrary to the laws of God and offensive (if not damaging) to the true Christian members of that organization. Can you imagine a Catholic or Baptist church allowing the leader of the LGBT to take the pulpit and espouse how wonderful and acceptable it is to be a homosexual? I don’t see that happening. Why should a religious based college be any different? In that context, maybe this small segment of perverts needs to be offended. The stigma of perversion needs to be levied against these disgusting, sinful, perverse acts. And the issue of freedom of speech does not apply equally here. This is not a public institution, it is a private institution and who or what is endorsed by that institution should be up to those running it, not the government or public at large.

    Anon 10:58, how foolish you are. If you are so concerned about a Christian college embracing Christian principles and hiring Christian speakers, why are you going there? You said, ”I am as far from Christian as you can get,” so that makes you an atheist or Satan worshiper I suppose. When you signed on as a student, regardless of your religious inclination or how much tuition you pay, you signed on to accept the Christian principles of the school. If you don’t like it, leave.

    Anon 9:25, your comment doesn’t even deserve response. How stupid can you be?

  56. Graham,

    Yes, Sodom and Gomorrah are metaphors. That's why Jesus used them in his references to being inhospitable.

    And, yes, the residents there denied travelers food and drink and raped them. (Pretty tough neighborhood).

    And, yes, pagans incorporated sexual practices in their religious observances, harshly condemned by Jews, including Jesus.

    So, where's the gay part come in?

    Certainly not in anything Jesus ever said.

  57. ... further thought.

    Nobody in that story engages in "sodomy." The inhospitable crowd presumably rapes two young virgin girls instead.

    So, what's being condemned here when God wipes them out? Homosexuality or heterosexuality?

    Neither. But He's making a pretty strong case against rape.

  58. ... another thought.

    What's the gender of the angels, by the way, the targets of so much lust of the crowd? Men, women? Or, as Matthew later tells us, no gender at all?

    Besides, the crowd settled on the girls. Just a bunch of drunken good ol' boys in the end.

    Any way you read it, it's really, really tough to see this story as a condemnation of consensual homosexuality.

    Unless, of course, you don't bother to read it and rely instead on "metaphors," mostly made up in Hollywood. Definitely want to go there for the best biblical interpretation. (Not!)

  59. ... attempted rape of angels, of course, should be condemned across the board, regardless of whether they're genderless or whatever the intended method of assault.

    I think we can all agree on that.

  60. ... come to think of it, how would one rape a genderless angel? (this is just academic, not a personal fantasy or desire).

    Sounds like some form of sodomy would be the only choice, but certainly oral because we're reasonably certain from the scriptures that angels can speak. Not sure they eat, so the other option might be closed, so to speak.

    Now, with the two young virgin girls, I'm sure nobody had to offer the drunken good ol' boys of Sodom any further instruction.

    They just did what comes naturally (or, in this case, too, pretty unnaturally, if you ask me).

    So, yes, in that respect I'm sure God was condemning unnatural - forced - sex, with angels, girls, boys, probably anybody would was unwilling and at the mercy of that crowd.

    So, Good Riddance!

    But don't lay that blame forever on a future generations of people who had nothing to do with the intended sexual abuse of angels and the rape of two young girls.

  61. ... my apologies to the scholastics, whose much more tasteful debates involved how many angles could dance on the head of a pin.

  62. Anon 10:58 you are a (funny) piece of work! You are so upset about the money spent to bring those folks to campus, yet you get a free ride from the same people paying THAT bill. Keep in mind that somewhere there is a student whose dream was to go to Carthage but couldn't afford it - and YOU have his/her spot. Go ahead and be as upset as you choose.

    It is quite possible to say that something is wrong, even saying it to someone's face, without hating that person. THAT is the message of Christianity - hate the sin, love the sinner. However, we have long since entered the realm of stating one's belief being equal to hating, denying, etc. Hang on for the ride because this ain't Great America . . .

  63. No, Anon, 3:11,

    Jesus' message was love everyone and don't condemn anybody's supposed sin because you're not perfect either.

    Read The Book!

  64. So Jesus' message was to teach that everyone should do whatever they want? I missed that -please give me a passage, any passage, where He said that.

    Read my post again, hate the sin, love the sinner.

  65. One more time, Anon.

    Love everybody, and you've got enough to worry about yourself to bother worrying about what somebody else is up to.

    It's right there in plain English. Well, plain Aramaic or Greek anyway.

    Not to criticize ... but take the plank out of your eye before you worry about the speck in your brother's.

  66. Please stop with the self-righteous bullshit, huh. Do and think what you like, but Christ clearly taught that there were sins. If someone pulls you out of your car tonight and hacks off both of your arms for fun, don’t pretend that you won’t be tempted to hate that person. Again, love the sinner, hate the sin. The plank isn’t in my eye, I hate the sin. Make sense? And just because great numbers of people do something doesn’t mean it is right, or that it should be TAUGHT that it is right. I hope you do well at Carthage -

  67. Anon,

    Good example, you're learning. Jesus taught that you should chop off your own hands and pluck out your own eyes in atonement for your own sins before condemning someone else, ostensibly for theirs. Oh, and giving all your money away first, too.

    That way, you'd prove your righteousness, and you'd be in a position to judge others.

    Before that, though, Bub, you're not qualified.

    His point, obviously, was that no one's qualified to do that.

    Read The Book!

  68. Anon,

    Of course, you can throw stones at people you disapprove of, if you wish. Jesus didn't forbid people from throwing stones at supposed sinners. He just recommended against it, unless the people throwing the stones weren't sinners themselves, in which case, it would be OK. Otherwise, he suggested they just walk away.

    Which they did, God bless 'em.

  69. ... oh, and, yes, please, please Read The Book!

  70. Anon 12:55/2:00, you obviously have not read it. So let me quote a bit of the bible passages so you can finally know what the Bible says. Also, as I said before, Jesus did not have to address the issue because God had addressed it previously, and nothing changed. But, passages below from Romans, 1 Corinthians and Timothy are from the New Testament. Here are the passages that address the issues:

    Genesis 19:1-2 - And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground; and he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.

    (So, unlike what you seem to think, there were no others that turned them away. The "inhospitable" acts came later)

    Genesis 19:4-5 - But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter: and they called unto Lot, and said unto him, "Where are the men which came in to thee this night? Bring them out unto us, that we may know them."

    (In that day to "know" someone was to have sex with them.)

    Genesis 19:8 - Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

    (Lot offered up his daughters for their orgy before sacrificing his guests, who the men thought were male. They sure would have been surprised to find the angels who came to destroy their cities were genderless.)

    Here are passages directly concerning homosexuality and God's view of it:

    Leviticus 20:13 - If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

    Romans 1:26-27 - For this reason God gave them up to passions of dishonor; for even their females exchanged the natural use for that which is contrary to nature, and likewise also the males, having left the natural use of the female, were inflamed by their lust for one another, males with males, committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the recompense which was fitting for their error.

    1 Corinthians 6:9 - Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind [practicing homosexuals]... shall inherit the kingdom of God.

    1 Timothy 1:9-10 - Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind [homosexuals]... and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine.

    You wanted it, you got it. This should put to rest all of you who maintain that the Bible does not address or condemn homosexuality. It does, in both the Old and New Testaments. Here's the passages, look it up for yourselves.

  71. Again, read The Book, by which I mean the whole Book.

    And, unlike the Pharisees and hypocrites, understand rather than nit-pick the rules

    Jesus said he came to fulfill the law, which he specifically said meant the Ten Commandments. Also, to reinforce the command to love God above all, to treat others as you’d be treated yourself, and a new one, to love everyone.

    That’s it. Total.

    And he was pretty hard on folks who thought their own self-righteousness directed more.

    Now, later on, some of his disciples did a little freelancing and decided that it was OK to point out perceived faults in another Christian (Jesus never said that; indeed, he spoke strongly against it.)

    Nevertheless, they had to build a church and some discipline, so it’s understandable.

    But if someone doesn’t believe as you do, what are you commanded to do? You’re commanded to LEAVE THEM ALONE.

    The handbook says you head for the edge of town, dust off your shoes and move on.

    So, head for the edge of town, dust off your shoes and move on. The Gospel, the “Good News,” which says keep your judgments to yourself, has supplanted your Old Testament message.

    As Jesus taught.

    Again, read The Book!

  72. Gee, I sort of remember somewhere in the Bible where Jesus sent forth his disciples and told them to travel to the ends of the Earth, enter towns, saty in the same house, and if the people don't listen, leave and wipe the dust of that town off their sandals. I guess I imagined all that. Jesus NEVER said to "leave people alone" Anon 11:18, even though that fits YOUR narrative.

  73. Hey - there are some who think Jesus was gay. This is not a choice, but a biological situation. You don't choose - this is your make up. Sure there are some people that experiment, but true gay individuals did not choose this lifestyle. And if you are truly Christian, which most of you profess to be, then you should except all people.

  74. Anon 11:18 = Fool.
    First and foremost, the Bible is not a "handbook." Secondly, to imply that "...his disciples did a little freelancing and decided that it was OK to point out perceived faults in another Christian(s)..." means that you discount the Bible as being divinely inspired. You therefore can not proclaim to be a Christian.

    And not just you, but all the other fools who call Christians "self-righteous” are evidently too stupid to understand that Jesus DID NOT say to ignore sin or not to point it out when it's committed. If Christians did that there would be no need for churches and we would have no way to try and bring sinners to God. Should we throw stones at homosexuals and kill them? No. Should we identify their perversion and sin and try to teach them the ways of God, as the Bible instructs? Yes. Should we allow our children to be left prey to those who would corrupt them and try to recruit them into a homosexual lifestyle? No. Emphatically NO! Should we allow these perverts to attempt to advance their ungodly, sinful, perverse agenda within our schools? NO! It is not "self-righteousness" for Christians to identify and persecute sin. It is the law of God to do so, but to do it in love and understanding and steer them away from the evil that is being perpetrated, in this case sodomy and perversion. To "leave them alone" is to turn our backs on them as Christians and to condemn them to hell. It's amazing how misguided you are Anon 11:18. Why not talk to a minister about this. Show him what you've read here and get a professional's opinion. Or are you Methodist?

    Anon 8:11, it's not a matter of accepting all people, it's a matter doing what God's Word instructs, and that is to lead people out of a life of sin and bring them to God.

    Born homosexual? I think not. No matter what a person's "inclination" might be, it is a conscious choice. I suppose you could say that Gary Becker was "born" a pedophile and he should not be chastised for it because he was born that way. Even if you were to remove religion from the formula, society as a whole has deemed homosexuality a perversion and unacceptable. That is why the sodomy laws were passed in the first place. It's only thanks to you bleeding heart, misguided, anti-Christian liberals that everything this country has stood for is being turned up-side-down and inside-out and made so that everything that is immoral and perverse is being forced on the rest of us a "acceptable" and "tolerable" and is tearing the fabric of this country apart.

    Based on the Christian principles that Carthage College was founded on, they have every right to bring a speaker that professes what is in God’s word. If you stinking liberals and homos can’t deal with it, then go to LGBT headquarters and practice your perverse religion and to another college that isn’t founded in God.

  75. Graham - you jerk off, there you go again. No one cares. Shorten it up. You have to much free time. Do something constructive rather than wasting our time.

  76. Anon 1:06, obviously you can't stand it when someone backs up what they say. Just like every other liberal, when presented with the facts and the truth all you can do is call people names. And in your case you do it from behind the anonymous cloak. Really brave of you.

  77. Graham,

    Just read The Book, stop, and listen to what the man had to say instead of trying to twist it to meet your prejudices.

    It's up to you, and I offer this advice in the spirit of Christian charity.

    Now, I'm going to dust off my shoes and move on. (That means I'm going to leave you alone, by the way.)

  78. Anon, 8:11,

    I don't know if there's any reason to think Jesus was gay, but he certainly was strange for his time. Being unmarried at his age, in his society, certainly would have raised eyebrows.

    He appeared to enjoy the company equally of both men and women, also a little odd for the time.

    From most of his comments, however, it would appear he just didn't put much emphasis on what some would call today the "traditional family."

    Indeed, he told folks that in the real kingdom, there'd be no such relationships.

    He didn't pay a whole lot of attention to his mother, and his father wasn't around anymore, though at lease one of his brothers hung out with him.

  79. Anon 1:31, I have read it. I've even quoted the passages for you exactly as they are written in the book. There is NO twisting of anything, except from your twisted point of view. If you can't read and understand what it says in plain language, then I pity you.
    If you support the perversion of homosexuality, then you are not Christian. Go find some guy to have sex with, it sounds like that's what you want to support.

  80. I NEVER understand why it is that the lisping left and domineering right always try to ban speakers with which they disagree...

    Don't they teach argumentation or debate skills in high school any more? How about LOGIC? Beyond the (very good) points before mine about freedom of speech, there is a good point to be made about our ability as a society to observe, analyze, listen to, and judge the quality of another person's point of view.

    Professors and other 'interest groups' should stop trying to ban speakers, and rather should encourage an orderly, rational, logical discourse on the issues.

  81. I think this whole thing is rather "queer".

  82. Both sides are offended, so what? Don't be pansies, if you want real freedom you need to obey freedom of speech.

  83. Anon 12:46, does that mean turning our backs on the moral priciples the Founding Fathers built this country on and ignoring it when these perverts try and recruit our children into their immoral ranks?

  84. Graham - jerk off you are quite the Christian.

  85. Graham,

    Baron von Steuben, who trained our Revolutionary Army of young men, was a flaming gay. Our founding fathers didn't seem to mind, so long as it got us where we needed to go. Get a grip. Everybody's got value, no matter what their particular orientation.

  86. ... I guess that was the beginning of ' don't ask, don't tell,' but in this case, nobody needed to ask.

  87. Anon 12:46/3:46/6:50 - I don't think you'd feel quite so strongly in favor of this sexual perversions if your sons or daughters were approached and recruited by these deviants. Or is it that you are among their ranks?

  88. That's an easy one. Just say no.

  89. Oh Graham - in you we find the problem. You claim liberals and homos to be the issue, but it is you as a right winger hate monger that is the problem. You fail to recognize that the biggest hypocrites walking among us is none other than folks such as yourself. Lets look at the folks that preach the loudest among us about the evils of homos and liberals. Shall I remind you of those congressmen that were members of your faithful and relgious republican party that were chasing male pages in the US congress. Yes, thats right, it was those religious republicans.

    And so you go on with your hate mongerings. Do you really think that Homos can "recruiter" or sway young children into their deviant ways. That comment in and of itself fully sums up your short sighted lacking of intelligence point of view. Can you find one, just one, person to say they were gay because they were "recruited" or "Swayed" to become deviant. Show us just one person.

    Graham - go back into your hole. The rest of the world wishes to advance and become a more civil society. The best citizens of this country that up hold American values do not wish to continue down the path of hate that you promote. American Values of judging one by the content of their character will prevail. If I was you I would be worried because I think your character is lacking. You religious republicans need to clean up your own house before looking at your neighbors.

  90. Graham - you are showing your ignorance with the recruitment concept. And if my child was gay, I would love them as a would any other child of mine. and as a side note I am a conservative -

  91. Why do so many Christians use their religion to defend their own hate speech? Christianity is not the only religion and many people of many faiths have their own beliefs. Mind your own beliefs and don't base reality around a fairytale you believe in. At my college we protest the crazy religious speakers all the time and anyone that feels they have a right to sit there (where they are not even welcome) and condem people to hell based on a book needs to realize that there is a bigger world then the bible.