January 29, 2010

Surprise stormwater pipe forces changes to proposed West Racine grocery store


A stormwater pipe is forcing a Racine developer to redraw plans for a grocery store and restaurant in West Racine.

Developer Tom Tousis was surprised to learn earlier this month an 84-inch stormwater pipe bisects the 1.5-acre lot at West Boulevard and Washington Avenue. Tousis can't build over the pipe and now needs to shrink the size of his proposed building by as much as 40 percent.

The pipe is the third utility easement any developer would have to address on the corner lot. A powerline and a water pipe also run through the property, carving up the seemingly vacant lot into four sections available for construction.

Tousis and the city disagree over whether the stormwater pipe was included in city records.

Brian O'Connell, director of city development for Racine, said the stormwater pipe was included in materials when the city first began searching for a developer for the site. It's also included in the city's GIS system, which is available for free online.

"They should have known about it," O'Connell said about Tousis' development team.

But Zak Williams, a spokesman for Tousis, showed a city survey of the site completed in 2006 that does not include the stormwater pipe. He said the original plans, which were shown to city officials when Tousis applied for an option to buy the land, were based on the 2006 survey.

"If the city knew about the pipe, why didn't they tell us about it?" Williams asked, noting the plan was approved by the city's Redevelopment Authority and City Council with no mention that the proposal would not fit on the site. O'Connell serves as staff to the RDA.

Williams added the city's own GIS website includes a warning on the front page that the online maps should not be used as official documents. Instead, Tousis used a city-commissioned, formal survey of the site, which left off the pipe, Williams said.

"Every developer knows you go off the survey," Williams said.

O'Connell said the stormwater pipe ran down an alley behind buildings the city knocked down to create the vacant lot. Utilities underneath alleys were not included on the survey map, he said.

O'Connell added Tousis made a "naive assumption" that there was stormwater pipe running underneath the former alley. He said the bigger problem is Tousis and his team have not worked with city officials on the project. As a result, O'Connell said, there are surprises.

Williams said the new pipe - discovered earlier this month - will force reductions in the size of the grocery store, restaurant and gas station. The new building may still be 10,000 square-feet, but it's significantly smaller than what Tousis intended to build.

Developer Ray Leffler, who has worked with Tousis on the project, said building over the stormwater pipe would be risky because the city may need to access the pipe for repairs. If that happened, crews would have to rip up the store to reach the pipe, he said.

"It wouldn't generally be an acceptable practice to build over that pipe," said Leffler, who owns Newport Realty in Racine.

But Leffler said Tousis can work around the stormwater pipe and still build an acceptable project. "It would have been nice if there was a pipe running right through the middle of a building that someone would have said something," Leffler said.

He added "the ball was dropped a bit," but instead of placing blame, focus should now be on redrawing the plans to fit the utilities on the site.

"The real question is how do you fix it and move on?" Leffler said.

Tousis and real estate agent, Karen Sorenson, wrote O'Connell a letter on Jan. 13 asking for an extension on the submission of their conditional-use permit for city approval. "The recent information obtained has changed the scope of our project drastically," the wrote to O'Connell.

Williams said Tousis is now waiting for the city to provide a reliable survey of the site before redrawing plans. "We don't want any more surprises," he said.

80 comments:

  1. The Translator1/29/2010 11:17 AM

    Why is it when something goes wrong in Racine government it seems like O'Donnell's name is always involved?

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  2. The Translator1/29/2010 11:17 AM

    Sorry, I meant O'Connell.

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  3. Maybe the city has been smoking the "mystery pipe".

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  4. Good point!

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  5. Looks more and more like the best use for this is a Park/Farmer's Market. Maybe Mayor Becker should have never torn the block down

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  6. It seems the developer didn't do a comprehensive job. So many spent hours debating, arguing, maneuvering and would they have spent so much time and money if the store was going to be the the now 40% size smaller? Probably not. I believe the developer needs to pay someone back since they should have FOUND the maps that were on paper.

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  7. Anon 11:55 said, "It seems the developer didn't do a comprehensive job." It is the building department's job to explore this before issuing a permit to build. How is the developer supposed to know about this if the city doesn't do their job and inform him of it? Is he supposed to magically divine that there's a hidden mystery pipe concealed underground? I suppose you want to blame the out-of-town developers who wanted to put low-income housing on this corner for the same thing. DUH! The city planning department and/or building department and/or street department should have brought this to the developer's attention.

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  8. This is so dead!

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  9. Now we know! Part of Dickert's 10 year plan was to find that water pipe! Now that they found it, he can disappear.

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  10. A 40% decrease in size EQUALS what the project was always going to be anyways: a convenience store.

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  11. While reading articles, I think about writing comments that would inspire intelligent conversation. Then I read other comments and loose my motivation.

    A good percentage of comments are negative and lack thoughtfulness. If you are responsible for these particular comments, there are options for you: 1) If you are upset with your personal life--Make changes so you are not so miserable 2) If you are truly upset with the City--Attend a city council meeting, public forum, or something along those lines to become informed--then you can formulate your thoughts in order to express your discontent with acumen.

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  12. OK this is just plain stupid, you mean to tell me the city had no idea this pipe was there? And a developer of this magnitude, putting approx 50 people to work, the city should have disclosed every inch of information. Just stupid....where is the mayor on this? I heard Tousis is very unliked at city hall

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  13. @1:43 Are you for real? You must really live a dull life! If your not a shrink, you need to see one ASAP! What does ones personal life have to do with being fed up with our local government?

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  14. Apparently Tousis is one of the few who is not aware of this easement. It is highlighted in yellow in the documents for the original RFP. Oh yea, Tousis didn't go thru the proper channels for this project--he is too good to do it the proper way. Here it is almost February and he finally looks at valid city documents. I heard him say in November at the RDA meeting that he was shovel ready to go. Stop blaming the City for Tousis' lack of professionalism. He doesn't even have set blueprints yet and he was scheduled to present to the City two weeks ago. Who is he going to blame when he says he doesn't have financing or a traffic plan for coming in and out of Washington Ave. A developer is responsible to do his homework and pay attention to the details. Someone has to hold Tousis accountable for being sloppy.

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  15. ...What does ones personal life have to do with being fed up with our local government?...

    The condition of your personal life (or your clear headedness) shows in which orifice you speak from.

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  16. The drawing Zac Williams showed the RDA had no dimensions on it and he held it up 50 feet away from anyone. So how could that committee know where his buildings were located on that site plan? Zac has no right to blame anyone other than his own team for this issue. Oh, why doesn't an L-shaped structure work with some buildings on Washington and some on Grove? Sure would look better than his original plan. Or is this his way of breaking his promise of opening a decent grocery store?

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  17. Reminder:

    One should always consider the source of a "comment" when reading Racine Post. Even more so when the source of the content is from someone Anonymous. Even this comment if you so choose.

    This comment is still valid, however, as it refers to no subject other than this reminder.

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  18. @2:41 My personal life is just fine thankyou, I think your personallity leaves a lot to be desired.

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  19. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  20. 2:51

    Mr Racine at work

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  21. @3:15 You forgot phone numbers on the rest room walls! LOL

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  22. The lord workes in many differnt ways. I told you many times thT this was not going to be build in our west racine. My aldermen said that he was going to stop it dead. As i have said before we do not want greek or moslums in our west racine. Jim is righte to say that the lord would not let us down. Jim is a friend of the good christian american man. Now give him a ride back to his crappy country and let him practice his religiun of alaah. Go away we dont want you here.

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  23. It looks like the Dickert people are so desperate to avoid any blame.

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  24. The storefronts along Washington should NOT have been torn down.
    The old Post Office was ugly but was being used and did not sit vacant near as long as that PIT known as the Grove Ave Piggly Wiggly.
    The city paid all those building owners and businesses top dollar to move, top dollar to tear the buildings down and created some small, unbuildable and apparently undesirable lot/s.
    I agree with the sentiment that the intention all along was to build a small convenience store and gas station with a gyros south. GREAT, SUPER, SPECTACULAR.

    The "developer", the "spokes-guy" and "real estate" agent all seem like clowns, mayhaps Tom oughta add *No Bozos* to his want ads and get some competent folks.
    The city is not building this gas station, the city is not digging holes on the ground if these people cant figure out whats going on with "the medium" maybe they should get new jobs ?
    I've never posted on this subject because I really do not care one way or the other and as far as I'm concerned a stop and rob/gas station would be a nice addition to that neighborhood.
    I do believe tearing those buildings down was hasty and dumb move on the city of Racines part.
    Maybe they did not like the payday loan THAT MOVED DOWN THE BLOCK ?

    And the artists rendering of the "train platform like" gas pump canopy. Looks like my 3 year olds handi work. :)

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  25. To Jim's People and your "Alderman" go stick the "pipe" up you Christian A**!

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  26. @ Jims people.. So Spanky is a racest enough said! What kind of cult do you people belong to?

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  27. Anon's 2:35 and 2:49,
    Are you one of two elected idiots in City Hall or an employee of this great city? It is very easy take a look at the design plans proposed for the 55 unit,I am pretty sure that one of their buildings encrouched on this easement! Why does everyone get bent out of shape about this gravel pit? Let Tom build it, regardless if it is a "Grocery Store" or a "Convenience Store". What does West Racine have going for it, absolutely nothing. Look at the streetscape of WR what do we currently have: a Hispanic church in a retail space, a few descent bakeries, one ok resturant, a store that sells teacher supplies, a furniture store that looks to be deserted, and coming soon, a ghetto clothing store! Hell seems to me a Gyro shop and gas station would be an improvement, to the hole aka "West Racine"!

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  28. Many city documents state that the city is really responsible for the information that they just gave you. They do not stand behind any information they provide, even when they are asked to furnish unpaid invoices before a house is sold.

    It is a sad commentary on the state of the city processes and information systems when they regularly will not stand behind the information they provide the public.

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  29. Many city documents state that the city is really responsible for the information that they just gave you. They do not stand behind any information they provide, even when they are asked to furnish unpaid invoices before a house is sold.

    It is a sad commentary on the state of the city processes and information systems when they regularly will not stand behind the information they provide the public.

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  30. Anon 7:01-

    2:35 is an Alderman and 2:49 is a granite salesman.

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  31. God put the pipe there to keep West Racine white and Christian. Hallelujah!

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  32. So the Conspiracy Theorist in me says- maybe Tousis knew about the pipe all along but really wanted the neighbors to back him so he told them that he had a plan drawn up for a big grocery store for them, just to come back and say "whoops, didn't know about the pipe - so I can't do that- so I will put in a convenience store instead, but will you still support me." I just want to wait and see what his new plan will be.

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  33. My God doesn't believe that.

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  34. Why would any city official let a businessman knowingly make mistakes without informing him? Typical politicians!

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  35. It would seem that for all that has been said and done that the developer, real estate agent, the 12 year old PR kid, or the owner of the development could have looked at city documents in the last 6 months or so. Right from the start it seemed Tousis was fighting with the city and blaming everyone else. If I were to get a commission, a salary, or had any sort of vested interest in getting this done, I would dot my I's and cross my T's, not ignore the help of those who have the answers! More reason not to trust this guy or his ability to get this done. Brian O'Connell, continue to market this property.

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  36. Anon 10:12= Monte Osterman

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  37. 10:12=Da Troof

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  38. Girl in Green1/29/2010 11:33 PM

    Logically speaking, no business man is going to spend time and money to develop plans that cannot be implemented. Really, one can assume that Mr. Tousis is not going to throw his own money away. Since he had gone through the effort to get the survey, he would draw his plans according to the KNOWN information.

    Since that is what he did, why is the City alleging he knew about the sewer? If he did the due diligence to get the information, why would he draw plans that don't correspond with the data. There is a logical disconnect...

    It is beginning to look like the City needs to explain its real intent. It does not appear that the City wishes to deal fairly with Mr. Tousis. The louder the City screams that Mr. Tousis did not follow the directions, the rules, etc., the more the City looks like it is trying to either hide something or deflect suspicion.

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  39. Maybe instead of hiring a PR guy who thinks it is appropriate to wear denim shirts and Mickey Mouse ties to meetings, he should have hired competent professionals. He also could have bothered to read the very public and available RFP put out by the city.

    Zak Williams is some kind of snake oil spin meister. Tommy, whatever you are paying him to post multiple blogs for you - it is too much.

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  40. Zak Williams1/29/2010 11:56 PM

    Sorry Monte I do not own any denim shirts, but I do like my Mickey Mouse tie. At least you spelled my name right in your last post.

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  41. Did not this guy want some type of deal too from the City? What's up with that? If he can't even read the plans to see this pipe was there ...

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  42. Zak, maybe your mommy will buy one for you or maybe that nice man Mr. Tommy.

    Zak, do you or any of the clowns on your team, Tommy included, take any responsibility for this oversight? Are you really going to blame the city completely? Did they do anything wrong? Did you?
    How about Karen Sorenson? She seems to be counting her money rather than finishing the job.

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  43. Girl in Green1/30/2010 9:04 AM

    Mr/s. 8:12,

    Do you realize that by personally attacking Mr. Tousis and Mr. Williams, it does make it sound like you are angry and just have something against them personally?

    You may have problems with their project, but really, you just sound like plain do not like them.

    In my experience, cities work with developers. If that was the case, and I am speculating, Mr.Tousis would have drawn the plans according to the information, because it would be in his best interest.

    While it is interesting that you choose to attack Mr. Williams' tie, you don't actually attack what he says. It appears that if you find him to be a "snake oil" salesman, he must be doing something right or you would not be bothering.

    I wish Mr. Tousis the best of luck, it sounds like he may need it.

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  44. Why is it every time someone wants to do something positive here, the City of Racine screws it up. You have got to be kidding me.

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  45. 9:04 is Zak. He is such a tool. People see thru your crap. This is the same thing he did for DICKert during the campaign. Our city is run by someone too dumb to realize these blogs don't mean shit. I guess Tommy bought the same sales pitch that our mayor did.

    Stay in Milwaukee, Zak the Hack. BTW, we all know you were behind the "union" postcards.

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  46. The city has had it in for Tousis from the begining. Another example of the inabilities of the mayor and city officals to get something positive for the city of racine done. Just plain stupid. I'm embarressed to live here.

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  47. Why is this city so incompetent that they cannot help someone build on a vacant lot? Racine is always making it difficult to run a business.

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  48. O'Connell and Dickert made a mistake. Now they are embarrassed and are looking to blame anyone and everyone but them. Take some responsibility. We are the ones who end up suffering when more jobs leave Racine.

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  49. Does this mean the $250k corporate welfare check Tousis was going to receive will be reduced 40%?

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  50. That's just a drop in the bucket compared to the $810 million for that choo-choo.

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  51. To the Girl in Green,

    I am not angry in general but I take exception to Zak the PR guru inflaming the community unnecessarily. Having watched this project closely, I have seen his work, his commentary, and approach. It is not positive; it is confrontational; it does not demonstrate an active interest in working with the city, regardless of their level of competence. That said, one has to wonder how Tom selected this PR person to doom this project.

    As for Karen, who has more than one vested interest in improving this property, in all that I have actively seen, she has not shown any ability beyond counting her commission. Her ignorance of the process and the resources available to her and her client beg the question again; how did Tom select these non-professionals to drive this bus, to fuel the flames of discontent.

    I wish Tom well too and I wonder whether is job creation estimates still corespond to the level of support he may be given. Also, will he begin to work with the city in earnest, or continue to screw up this process at the expense of the city's already tainted reputation?

    The city is not easy to work with but

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  52. Mr. Spangenberg, you are represented in this blog by a person identifying himself as "Jims People" who is obviously a racist, a fascist, has no idea whatsoever about what it means to be a Christian, and is a complete idiot; not to mention he has absolutely no understanding of English composition, grammar or spelling. I can only assume that because you don't respond here to the diarrhea this a-hole espouses in your name, that you must agree with him and, in fact, condone his opinions. What say you Spanky?

    And to Jims People directly, and I think I speak for the vast majority of those who respond here (conservatives, liberals, Christians and otherwise), why don’t you just go to hell.

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  53. Why does O'Connell continually screw up and cost the city millions of dollars and have nothing to show for it? Why does he continue to to have a job that his sole responsibility is to bring jobs to Racine and then have nothing to show for it? Why does Dickert continue to have this guy be the lead for development? I thought he wanted to actually bring jobs here. I guess we just get more of the same, taxes in and jobs out.

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  54. Dickert can do no wrong! He and his buddies say what goes on in Racine.

    Party on Lying John!

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  55. I find it funny as heck that people thinks Jims Folks is for real and actually take the joke/sarcasm for real.
    NOW THATS FUNNY. Jims peoples comments are funny too. But fake folks, buy a clue.

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  56. Building Trades1/30/2010 4:31 PM

    On Friday Dickert told a number of us labor leaders that the pipe can be built on it. Should he tell his own department head? Who is correct?

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  57. Anon 11:59,
    Why is it that people such as yourself find it offensive that the "Tousis Team" took the high road on this one. It seems to me that he and his team took the time to approach the neighborhood before the politicians. This seems to put you on edge, is it that you are Jim Spangehberg or one I really like John Dickert? Regardless of which you are I know by your look at me philosophy on life, you might be upset because you can't take credit for this development.
    Many bloggers seem to consistantly hammer on Brian O'Connel(don't get me wrong I think he isn't worth a shit either) but the fact remains that "Johnnie Boy Dickert Head" is still his boss and is pulling the strings on this one.

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  58. 1/29/2010 2:51Hey Shove it!!! Probably a Dickhead follower or leader?....I mean Dickert follower.
    We, or most of us have the sense to filter what we hear or read.
    No need for your continuing reminders.
    Go move your car to the other side of the street so you do not get a ticket!!

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  59. Pete:

    Seriously, how can you sleep at night??

    You remove my sarcastic comment about how I was looking forward to reading the sleazy comments on the t-shirts of the future employees of the tousis' business (example: The ones that Gus' Gyros female employees wear), yet you allow someone to call Dickert a Dickhead (see post above).

    Now don't get me wrong, I also think that Dickert is in fact what the blogger calls him, but what exactly is your criteria and guidelines for deleting comments??

    I'm beginning to think that you are a drunk goofball who randomly hits the delete button when it feels good. Am I right?

    Can you explain??

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  60. Monte sucks!!!!!

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  61. Confused,
    Go hug a tree!

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  62. Gooseberries didn't want to build on the site because of those reasons. This was published some time ago.

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  63. To Anon 4:50,

    I am not Spangenberg, nor Dickert, nor Monte (as I have been accused of), and I don't think they act right all the time either. Spangenberg has lost his cool a few times and Dickert mugs for the camera every chance he gets. I think Brian O'Connell (and city development) could be more approachable and helpful. In short, you couldn't be much more wrong about me.

    That said, the behavior, the blog comments, the actions in the community meetings, the blaming others, not taking responsibility for missing deadlines and not understanding the process are what makes me angry about Team Tousis. The did not stay above the fray, may have sent obnoxious postcards, and seemed to revel in the discord. That makes me angry. If they come to our neighborhood, I hope they act better than they have.

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  64. Dickert can't even make a meeting on time...let alone close a deal

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  65. Team Tousis = Team Rocket

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  66. Is he still going to need to employ 24 people in a building that is 40% smaller to get the land for free?

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  67. Is he still going to need to employ 24 people in a building that is 40% smaller to get the land for free?

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  68. I think Tousis has plans of using robot automation to replace human workers in the store and restaurant.

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  69. It is very difficult to meet a deadline when O'Connell takes three weeks to send information that is essentual to for the documents to go in front of the Redevelopment Authority and then gives less than 48 hours to complete them. When is O'Connell going to admit a mistake instead of being so desperate to avoid blame.

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  70. This corrupt and dismal affair is exactly why Racine is in the shape it is today. So many pigs feeding at the trough...

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  71. I can see why this town is headin for the toilet. Can't have jobs if the city puts up so many barriers to starting up businesses.

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  72. I can atest to the strangeness out of O'Connell. Anything remotely a new idea goes nowhere. The only thing he likes IMHO is Low income housing.
    Side bar any bets that the Consultants on the Uptown Art Project get a contract to manage it and its a no bid one at that? Must be nice to play with other peoples money.
    Mr. Mayor can you please fire this guy?

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  73. "I can see why this town is headin for the toilet. Can't have jobs if the city puts up so many barriers to starting up businesses."

    It's not a barrier, its a fucking sewer pipe. His realtor knew it was there. Everyone in West Racine knows about it. This is just a sham. He can't make a deal happen, so blame the city.

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  74. Your Conscience1/31/2010 2:01 PM

    Are you wearing your church choir rob while swearing? Being a member of the Redevelopment Authority and knowing about the pipe, doesn't that make you liable for not telling him? Not something I would admit publicly, and certainly not laced with profanity.

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  75. SEE -- I told them to tear down the north side of the street. But they just never listen!!

    If you tear down the block where De Rangos is he can rehab the old piggly Wiggly and build the new stuff in front. Plenty of room there!!

    But you numb skulls still won't listen! Shame on you!

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  76. I am not worrying not one bit at all. It will not happen. Just have your faithe in the lord christ. He will deal with non beliefing liars himselve.

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  77. 5:19,

    You spell and spout off much like Jim's people?

    Did you forget to sign your name?

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  78. Jim's People1/31/2010 10:07 PM

    You people always mke fun out of me so I din't put my name up that time.

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  79. Jim's People said... Hey nice spelling again. You must be a product of RUSD.

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  80. What a great resource!

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